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Author Topic: Copied suggestion due to recommendation that it was posted under Modding  (Read 188 times)

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Offline thewalnut

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Link to original post: http://aworldoficeandfire.co.uk/Forums/index.php?topic=35434.msg46737#msg46737

idk how you people feel about this mod really, but I for one think it's extremely unbalanced, and very biased towards horse-archery.

I've came up with a very simple formula for revamping all armor, but it's so much legwork to tweak it through Morgh's that it's taking me an eternity.

Basically I've divided all armors into 4 tier categories and by graphics (instead of randomness) I've separated torso armor into 9 parts, greaves/boots into 3 parts and gauntlets/gloves into 2 parts.

The formula goes like this:

+8 armor score per each t4(plate) armor part for both gauntlets and torso
+12 armor score per each t4(plate) armor part for boots/greaves.

full plate with body coverage results in 72 armor and half the max value for greaves on Leg armor (18 armor) (akin to ACOK) making you practically a tank
full plate boots result in max 36 armor
full plate gauntlets in 16 armor

These values make armor less redundant and actually play a part, it also is the best approximation to realism achievable in M&B regarding armor values, dmg types and etc.

I've fixed in my game all "Greatswords" (which are not greatswords at all) to the left-hip so the glitchy straps when carried on back stop pestering my line of sight (it looks ridiculous)
Longswords were made one/two handed as per their name instead of locked as 2 handers. Same for all other two-handers except the ones named "Greatsword", simply because it made zero sense.

I'm still dabbling with armor values for helmets that make them functional, currently most of them are quite useless tbh, but I still have no formula.

All in all, these simple changes with a proper adjustment to armor prices (increased prices for plate, and decreased for mail) will probably make the game much more balanced, but there's still need to change through the module system the scripts for "heavy/medium" armor, for mail should be all medium armor not heavy, unless they carry plate parts on them, but still even so it wouldn't hinder your movement as much realistically, making the debuffs nonsensical for mail.

I've also dabbled in changing horse HP, and I think all horse HP should be increased, Destrier having the highest at 170, while the other races having less but more than they carry currently. Also, no matter what armor, if the race of a horse is X all should have the same HP values.

Fire Arrows were changed to do bonus dmg to shields (only makes sense), and increased piercing flag (this one for the piercing bolts too)

That's it.

With these simple changes Horse Archery isn't as stupidly overpowered, and you won't get one-shot by random bandits when in full plate... It also makes melee combat less gamey and unrealistically "hard".

Anyway, my suggestion is to completely overhaul the balancing of the items in the game, make more "faction" items into merchandise and finish adding overlooked and currently unavailable gear that's only in-game eating up resources for no reason at all (currently)

So, make faction specific items rarer through normal markets, but available none-the-less, while faction specific markets have the complete list of exclusive items instead of just the most worthless ones...

Armor formula chart:
Code: [Select]
9 armor parts

2 armor parts


1-2 for cloth
3-4 for padding/leather/fur
5-6 for mail
7-8 for plate

3 armor parts


1-3 for cloth/padding
4-6 for leather/fur
7-9 for mail
10-12 for plate

These changes make armor work more like in ACOK / 1257 AD mods, which in turn make for a much more pleasant and realistic reflection of armor and how to fight against armor. Sure, valyrian steel should still be viable against those, but anything cut-centered becomes practically useless against plate armor, and you either carry tons of momentum into strikes to beat the armor with swords, or you use stabs / maces / spears / piercing ranged. In this manner, PC and NPC alike will become practically unkillable by peasant mobs (which's realistic, and if you play with stamina, well, you will end up vulnerable if you try to tank an army of peasants and end up defeated). Plus, such changes make archery less overpowered, making it more interesting and tactical how one approaches full armored fighters... I simply love that style of M&B tbh, and I think that anything that's not like that sucks, but that's my opinion...

I didn't add variables considering quality in my item_kinds1 because I don't feel like it's worth the hassle for me, but if the author is interested, the fluctuating values could reflect both quality and age of the equipment.
As I've mentioned before, I'm still working on finding helmet values that reflect the god-like immunity they grant to head dmg so it's not only more realistic, but also less unbalanced against hunting-bow headshots which usually are OHK...

Along with all those changes I'm making, I've also fixed the Valyrian Blades acquired through the Valyrian Rock given by John Snow so they work like proper longswords (one/two handed)

As for weapons I still need more thorough testing, but I'm inclined to suggest adding proper dmg regarding how the blade taper is shaped. Narrower taper = much higher puncturing dmg than cutting, and vice-versa... By doing such it's easy to define swords to work as all-round-purpose/anti-armor/self-defense unarmored. Simply adjusting the dmg values to reflect their appearance is easy enough to do, and very useful + realistic.

Armor weight penalties should be adjusted too, so Mail is Medium Armor instead of Heavy.

Now, suggestions not balancing related:

Improve the texture coloring for Generic Valyrian Blades to look more realistic/metallic and less cartoonish grey/purple.
Add damascus steel waves to all iconic Valyrian Blade textures, specially Long Claw (it's not our fault that the TV show's art director is so bad to the point of ignoring the most important characteristic that makes Valyrian steel recognizable in the books)
Make Targaryen black armor look less weird (remove that neck thing, make a proper knight helmet, I'd suggest simple retex of the Reach Knight Helmet into black/red)
Unburden the mod by removing unused resources
Unburden the mod by removing less-used and less-liked gear (probably most of the generic helmets attached to mail coifs like the flat steel helmet for instance)
Switch Danny's sword for Darksister instead of Blackfyre (just a thought, not a necessity really, but it'd make things more unique)
Make the milanese sword into Needle (srsly, it looks the part) or simply get rid of the resource.
Add all faction gear as merchandise except for banners, but make them rarer.
Change Banner dmg to puncturing, increase it's damage, add the overhead spear move, maybe add the ability to swing for blunt dmg.
I'd also (but that's just me probably) make all "racial exclusive" content available to any races as long as you meet certain requirements, like the ability to acquire the Warg, or the Giants...


Wild suggestion:
The quest that leads to acquiring the "free castle" could be improved in such a way that you uncover a whole kingdom through a questline, basically more of the same with some story, but adding a town, a port town, and at least 4 more castles... That'd be neat as hell...

PS: Hope that someone reads this, and also that someone answers, my suggestions are well based and I am 200% that such changes would please all regarding balancing, even those who may complain about my ideas, I mean, I've been playing warband since it's release, and this kind of balancing is the best suited for the game under any settings... Also, I guarantee to anyone who never played under such balancing rules, you will fall in love with it  ;)

Important Note:
All the proposed changes I can do myself, except for my "wild suggestion", problem is that I both don't have access to the module nor do I have the proper tools (currently I don't have photoshop, but even if I did I've never managed to make dds plugins work properly)

I am aware that I've got a bit repetitive on the post itself, but that's because I was kind of sleepy at the time of the post, so that's that.
I can answer any questions regarding this, and I've not posted in the sub-forum for sub-mods due to the fact that I still haven't managed to finalize the changes properly. The most cumbersome part is that I'm having to find each item model through BRF (and the resources are quite disorganized within the mod) and changing one by one, that makes thousands of items to change, the list is really really big. Once I'm done with armors (the longest one) I'll move onto weapons. The major problem though is finding a decent chart for helmets, as I've said. Realistically most of them would have really high armor and practically the same values between them, except for coifs (mail/leather/padding) which would in turn have much less armor than the helmets themselves. Since the Engine sort of reads which armor part a weapon hits, it isn't all that problematic having such high values, simply because if an arrow hits the face and the face is exposed, it's likely to cause full damage even though the armor is absurdly high...

Btw, I'm still trying to figure out the reason behind having a noswing copy of most swords, I mean, it doesn't seem to make much sense and it only makes the resource loading THAT much more slow...  :o


I've modified the top tier armors to test out weapon damage, I'd say that it's pretty good that we actually have so many sword types when it comes to meshes, basically the Longsword has a narrow taper, so I've managed to realistically adjust it as anti-armor by making it piercing centered instead of cutting, the same can be applied for the "greatsword" (which, again, is a longsword too), while the Bastard Swords have a more cutting/chopping centered taper giving more mass to the blade. As I've anticipated, it's still ok to fight a full plate enemy with the bastard swords, but you have to be more tactical as to how you hit them, by either getting high-momentum for a chop or by slowly poking the enemy to death with stabs. Longswords should be able to dispatch full armored enemies with more ease, but they are not very good at killing light-armored opponents with cutting, but just like for the bastard sword against high armor, you can win easily if you know how to pickup momentum, yet, no more hit-kills with chopping for narrow taper...

I've increased Valyrian Swords overall dmg to be up to the task, but Blackfyre was made with a lower piercing dmg than narrow taper because it has 2 blades (which makes stabs less concentrated, hence less powerful) to make more of a realistic sense, but I've given it a tad increased chopping power (considering the design it should actually absorb impact making it easier to wield and it adds mass to the blade).

Dark Sister is a narrow taper type, so I've made it reflect that without killing it's chopping power entirely, it'll still be phenomenal against low-armored enemies but it won't be as effective at chopping through steel.

Ice was turned into a chopping monster with a very weak stabbing dmg due to it's taper, size and sheer mass. I'd say that I am eager to make a play-through just so I can exclusively use it with no other weapons what-so-ever.

Heartsbane is also a chopping focused beast, but not as impressive as Ice (due to logical reasons).

The Toledo blade was adjusted to fit what would be needle, but since it's unused and lacks the valyrian script (I suppose) I've not tested it out yet, but it's meant to be a piercing beast (decent Piercing dmg combined with absurd attack speed).

I'm disappointed with Dawn model, but I've adjusted it to be an all-round type of blade due to it's meshe's taper, but I'd strongly recommend getting an actual model for it as soon as possible (as I've said, I can make it, but I'm not as skilled as Krag for replicating textures, and Dawn does appear in the show, so it'd be neat to have it resemble that one, plus, again, all textures for valyrian blades should carry the damascus steel wave pattern, even though the TV Show fools refused to put it there).

I've also made the Jousting Lance's blunt damage value identical to the Great Lance, due to it's total damage being way too pathetic even when couched...

Now I'm analyzing how to balance the one-handed blades, when I'm done with that I'll get back to adjusting lighter armors.

What I have yet to adjust though, or come up with a sheet, is the price of armors. Full Plate IE top tier armors should cost nearly as much as valyrian blades if not equally or even more... Top tier armored troops should also have a significant increase in wages and rarity as to avoid stupidly unrealistic battles of 100 tanks vs 100 tanks.

The best part is that it reflects well the handicapping of Heavy Armor debuff but it makes it so that even when tire you can tank enough attacks to recover considering you won't be able to flee or kite. Now losing a horse is an slow-death nightmare if in the midst of the enemy army, and back-stab dmg plays a very important part in avoiding that tanks become as ridiculously unrealistic as in other modules.... I think it's great tbh! =)

The other thing that I'm considering is increasing sword speeds (longswords, greatswords and bastard swords) because right now they actually look like you are hitting with a massive wooden hammer, it's way too slow for the intended fast-pace swords were made for... When I do this, fighting multiple opponents will become even more dangerous, and trying to do that unarmored will be close to suicide hehe

I've revised my table for leg-armor on Torso pieces, just like the boots armor and I've decided to keep them as they are since with my proposed table they'd be nerffed, which would make fighting from horse-back very annoying... The only changes are gonna be buffs for lighter boots, since they have piddling amor values that makes most light boots useless, the idea is to adjust them properly to their representative mesh, so it's more intuitive as to how much protection they offer. Then again, I must insist that many of the armors should get their "weight" penalties adjusted, there are way too many medium armors considered as heavy, and that kills their usefulness even without my tweaking.

With all the changes in weapons I'm feeling an itch to rename the "Greatsword" into some other Longsword generic category, and the need to add actual Greatswords to the mod that have massive lengths to compete with Polearms, as they should. These should not be allowed on horse back neither, since they were meant as anti-pike weapons for foot-knights... In fact, I think that it'd make a great addition overall, specially if we add some sort of Valyrian Greatsword, just imagine the beast! haha

Lastly, I'm inclined to revise axes, and changing all round-bladed axes into cutting dmg while keeping flat bladed axes as piercing. The reasoning behind it is because flat bladed axes are meant for chopping and can pierce through materials, while round-bladed ones can't (in real life) if you want I can point out some testing videos some weapon geeks made on youtube.

As of now my to do list consists on finishing weapon and top tier armor adjustments, then moving on to making all brigandine armors into a middle ground between tier 3-4 (to be fair they should be t4 too, but that'd kill the "balancing") after this part is done (which is the only exception to my predefined rules) I'll move on to changing the learther armors accordingly. I'd say that some of the top tier northern armor is only covered by leather but underneath are plated too, while the low tiers are just thick leather, which can make for a middle ground between t2 - t3. Anyhow, I'm still waiting for suggestions, but if no one says anything I'll just do things by my own intuition, once I finish it I'll release the txt for download and I believe I won't be doing this again, this is crazy legwork to do again, specially considering that most items in the game are named generically and I have to look them up one by one  :o


Upon further snooping I've found out that Loras' armor has a really messed up bump-map attached to it, that needs serious fixing, it looks like crumpled paper... EDIT: No, it's not just the bump map (normals) I've removed them through BRF and it's still a mess... Idk what might be the cause, it looks okay in the menus, but when worn it's like crumpled paper and there are visible gaps in the mesh itself.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 06:18:58 PM by thewalnut »

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